Posting this mostly for myself… contains some personal info. (If you’re reading this, it’s because you’re a close friend and I trust you to respect my privacy and Michelle’s)
Kethry2 (11:10:11 PM): What else you been doing lately? Nekodojo (11:12:58 PM): Had an argument with miche about how I would like her to clean up after herself more and not leave trash lying around Kethry2 (11:13:16 PM): Oh? How did it go? Nekodojo (11:13:17 PM): There is more to it than that, but that’s the short version Kethry2 (11:13:39 PM): Yeah, Did you feel good, getting it out like that? Nekodojo (11:14:14 PM): Eh, she was pissed off at me because I was a bit patronizing, but I think she will be more aware of it (and that it annoys me) after this… Kethry2 (11:14:58 PM): Think it will help? Nekodojo (11:17:45 PM): We had another argument a week or two ago (right before we came to visit you) that was related a bit… I said that I feel like our chores are divided into “things Greg does” and “things we both do together”… I said that I feel like her asking me to help with something she said she would do makes me feel like she doesn’t recognize and understand the things that I do on my own every day without prompting. Kethry2 (11:19:00 PM): Maybe you could make a list? Greg Chores, Miche chores Together chores?
Kethry2 (11:20:10 PM): Miche mentioned your argument, she seemed confused why you were angry with her. Do you think your next talks helped clarify your position? Nekodojo (11:20:38 PM): Part of the problem is that when I get home, she is usually just getting up and wants to go do stuff and of course she wants me involved, which is fine, but it doesn’t leave me with a lot of free time, between work, cat scooping, cat medicine, making dinner, etc. Kethry2 (11:21:21 PM): And greg, its really not fair. At that point you have been working 8+ hours Nekodojo (11:22:38 PM): I don’t know if she understands, and I don’t know if I understand what I mean either. I think she got the message that I want her to not leave trash lying around… I will eventually pick it up, but it annoys me. I mentioned that I would appreciate it if she would make dinner, maybe once or twice a week, but she hasn’t done that. Corrii seems to do more chores than miche does (she does other people’s dishes, takes out trash, etc) Kethry2 (11:23:59 PM): Well, you you fell the chores should be split equally? Kethry2 (11:24:04 PM): fell = feel Nekodojo (11:25:36 PM): I thought about making a list, and mentioned it, she said that sounds childish. We each have our things to do, why don’t we just do them? I don’t mean that we should each count up the number of hours we spend on the house and scold each other for not doing our part, but I feel like the stuff I do is invisible a lot of the time. (I don’t mind being invisible, but I’m not willing to spend hours on chores while she has “free” time, then turn around and help when she has chores) Kethry2 (11:26:53 PM): Well, it might sound childish but you might consider trying a list. she has a lot more free time than you Nekodojo (11:28:36 PM): The laundry has been a sticking point lately. She can hardly walk up and down the stairs due to her knee, so I get to carry laundry up and down the stairs. Then it’s sort of expected that I will go along and help her with it. Which I don’t really mind per se, but the arrangement for most of our relationship has been that she does the laundry and I do the dishes. There is some “reasonable” explanation why she doesn’t want to do chores, so I end up doing them, like litter boxes, cat shots, taking trash out. Kethry2 (11:29:21 PM): Then how about switching, she does dished, you do laundry? Nekodojo (11:30:54 PM): I realize that part of the problem is that *I* have trouble asking her to do things. It’s not really my style to say “Darling, can you do dishes today?” I do them without being prompted. I like to bring her stuff or take her plate or whatever if I happen to be going to the kitchen, but I very rarely ask her to do anything or get anything for me. Different modes, different comfort levels I guess. Kethry2 (11:34:15 PM): But she is not like you (doing things without being prompted) And she has gotten used to you doing things. So now (to her) you are suddenely getting mad at her not doing some stuff. You should tell her you have been getting upset about it and then *tell* her when she is not doing things she shoudl be. Nekodojo (11:36:35 PM): Then there’s the whole sex thing… I have been frustrated at her for a long time because our sex life is pretty much zero. I think for a long time I have not said anything about all the other things that frustrate or annoy me because 1. it is small potatoes compared to the sex thing, meaning that if she would have sex with me from time to time I would gladly shut up about everything else, and 2. that I don’t want to argue with her because then she might choose to use that as a reason to withhold even more. But both of these are my own personal psychosis blowing everything out of proportion, I think Kethry2 (11:38:13 PM): Well, this is just my two cents from what I see when I visit, but I dont think you are blowing things out of porportion. If I were in your situation, I would not be happy about the chorse and lack of sex Nekodojo (11:44:30 PM): Understood. I’m certainly not happy about it, and I’ve told her that I feel like she is the one who has changed and that I am dissatisfied. It’s not completely fair to ask someone to change, change who they are and how they think and feel and believe and stuff. But, really she is the one who has changed (or if not changed, at least allowed me to believe that she was capable of being sexual with me and that she was comfortable with it, then turned out to be neither). It’s a catch-22… I finally convinced her that I am here to stay and that she is not in immediate danger of losing me, so this leads to her being more comfortable with her own feelings and more able to act as comes naturally. Unfortunately due to her previous abuse issues, she doesn’t like sex and doesn’t want it, now that she’s not using it as a tool to keep my interest (which she basically admitted she was doing at first, though unconsciously) Kethry2 (11:46:01 PM): Well, okay I think the sex issue is pretty deep rooted and maybe even some therapy? But the chores I think you two can deal with on your own,. Small steps first Nekodojo (11:46:29 PM): Yeah. They should be separate, I finally decided :) Kethry2 (11:46:40 PM): Good for you! Kethry2 (11:47:05 PM): I think a list is the way to go Nekodojo (11:47:14 PM): Which is why I’m no longer living in fear of upsetting her and actually speaking my mind every so often… Kethry2 (11:47:50 PM): Feels good, dont it? Nekodojo (11:49:35 PM): She said she would like me to play Everquest more, so that we can have some hobby that we share, so that she doesn’t feel like she has to choose between spending time with me or spending time on the game. It’s something she is interested in, and she would like me to be able to share and participate, and she feels a little sad and alone because I don’t. I said, guess what, I feel that same exact way about something else. Kethry2 (11:50:05 PM): Oh? Did you know what you were referrring to? Nekodojo (11:50:22 PM): (I didn’t think it would be a good time to point out “Except that you get to have Everquest with your friends all day”) Nekodojo (11:50:56 PM): No, I told her straight out, I feel the same way about sex. It’s important to me, and it makes me sad that you don’t want to enjoy it with me. Kethry2 (11:51:28 PM): Nekodojo (11:53:40 PM): (I didn’t think it would be a good time to point out “Except that you get to have Everquest with your friends all day”) <why didn’t you? Its true and you need to let her know that its not fair? Kethry2 (11:51:42 PM): Nekodojo (11:54:14 PM): No, I told her straight out, I feel the same way about sex. It’s important to me, and it makes me sad that you don’t want to enjoy it with me. - What was her response? Nekodojo (11:55:32 PM): She said she knows, and she feels she has made *some* progress but she feels hopeless like she is unable to change. I said she should go get some therapy and she said she would be too uncomfortable talking with someone else about her problems. I usually say something like “Well, what do you think we should do?” and she usually says something like “Well it’s obvioius that I will never be good enough, so you should just leave me. I’m broken, and broken things should be thrown away”. Well, how can you argue with that. Kethry2 (11:56:51 PM): You say “Well, lets try” Nekodojo (11:57:01 PM): She has also said that she doesn’t want me to be sexual with anyone else, and she feels that the relationship would be pretty much over if I did that. That’s probably overreacting, but that’s what I get for not negotiating the commitment up front (before getting married). Kethry2 (11:58:20 PM): Okay just talking doesn’t seem to work. You have been talking to her fro a few years about this. You are still unhappy. Nekodojo (11:59:05 PM): We both had our secrets, mine was the bi and poly thing, which I hadn’t quite figured out or hadn’t quite accepted. Hers is the gaping hole where sexuality used to be which she sort of papered over by behaving a certain way which was not really natural or fun for her. Kethry2 (12:00:12 AM): Well, I thinkt he sex issuae will take time and therapy, fro *both* of you. But I really think you should start small and work on the housework issue. You need to do less, and she needs to do more Nekodojo (12:00:39 AM): The #1 thing I would like her to do is practice sex when she is alone (as in masturbate) so that she can become more comfortable with sex in general, and learn what she likes and doesn’t like. But she has no inclination to do that either. Kethry2 (12:00:55 AM): Hell Greg that is asking a lot. Nekodojo (12:00:59 AM): I know Kethry2 (12:01:34 AM): christ, I don’t even do that. Start smaller Nekodojo (12:02:13 AM): She has said that her sexuality is something she would like to change about herself, for her own sake, even if I were not around. But she has no idea how to change it. How do you learn to like it more when you’re never exposed to it? Kethry2 (12:03:39 AM): HUmm…well how about a weekend away, massages, full spa treatment couple orinted thing Kethry2 (12:03:53 AM): Swing buy Good vibration, do some shopping Nekodojo (12:05:24 AM): We used to have sex more often… not a lot, but usually once a month or so. The thing I can’t figure out is, if she used to be able to do that, even if she didn’t really like it, can’t she do it anyway from time to time? Hell, I do things for her that I don’t enjoy. She has some really deep-seated issue that causes her to run and hide, it’s not like it’s a chore or it’s inconvenient, or it’s uncomfortable or gross, it’s more like she is afraid of it, really afraid. Kethry2 (12:06:18 AM): Now that is different from what you said a yewar ago, if she is afraid, then yes, she needs to go to a counslet Kethry2 (12:06:21 AM): cousler Nekodojo (12:07:24 AM): Weekend away would be good, I have thought about it. We have had a few chances this year to be alone (like when we went to LA) but she still doesn’t want any sex. Strange, because the #1 reason for not having sex at home is “Don’t want the roommate to hear us”. So here we are, hotel room and everything, what do you say now? “Don’t want to”. Hell. Kethry2 (12:08:05 AM): You know, some people just dont like sex Nekodojo (12:08:49 AM): Anyway, I would like to spend some effort on it, but there is no indication she will want to do anything even if we are romantic, sensual, and alone. Kethry2 (12:09:58 AM): Let me ask you, when you were up here, and she was wlorking/going to school did yo uhave these probs? Nekodojo (12:11:37 AM): It’s pretty clear that she doesn’t like sex, but there is something more. It’s not even a “I’m not enjoying this but I’ll do it for you, because I know you enjoy it” type thing… there is some actual aversion there. She knows how important it is to me but this is not enough. Nekodojo (12:11:42 AM): hang on Nekodojo (12:16:31 AM): I think it has changed slowly over time… but for the last 5 years or so it has been a pretty repeatable pattern. I didn’t really catch on at first, there were just more and more reasons why we couldn’t at that particular time, ranging from “tired” to “period/cramps” to whatever. I noticed the “windows of opportunity” getting narrower all the time… has to be a weekend, has to be when she is not cramping or bleeding, has to be when the roommate is gone, and that narrows it down to a couple days a month when it was reasonable to even ask, and then it got to be “no” even when all the other conditions were right… that was when I started catching on. Kethry2 (12:17:54 AM): I am just wondering if she was to do something outside the home (work, school, hobby) she would have more energy and maybe be more interested Nekodojo (12:18:00 AM): Having different sleep schedules also minimizes the times when she will be asked the question.. Kethry2 (12:18:15 AM): Yes, I noticed that Nekodojo (12:19:23 AM): That’s probably true, she should really be doing *something* during the day, even if it’s just going for a walk (or making food). Kethry2 (12:20:25 AM): Yes, I agree. I think giving away the car (to her mother) was a big sign she doesn’t want to do anything Nekodojo (12:21:38 AM): Yeah, though it was sitting for long periods in the driveway before that. And of course she doesn’t want to drive the new car because it’s too big (hmm, kind of convenient) Nekodojo (12:22:13 AM): I would be happy leaving the car at home and taking the bus if I thought she would use it. Kethry2 (12:22:27 AM): I really think she needs to get out and do something Nekodojo (12:22:37 AM): I hope corrii gets her learners permit soon, that would give them something they could do during the day Nekodojo (12:24:26 AM): Corrii is depressed and on medication and everything… I am understanding and sympathetic. But she plays EQ as much or more than michelle and they encourage each other. I would like them to encourage each other to do something a bit more active Kethry2 (12:25:19 AM): I think you will have to be a little more proactive, more then just talking Nekodojo (12:25:21 AM): Still, even with all the problems Corrii has, she still manages to be more “functional” most of the time than Michelle. Nekodojo (12:26:25 AM): Getting me to be proactive will be hard, I am afraid of pressuring her into doing something because she is likely to not do it well and not like it, simply because it wasn’t her idea… Nekodojo (12:26:55 AM): I have already tried the “setting an example” method, that doesn’t work. :) Kethry2 (12:27:14 AM): No, I think you need a little tough love (not with the sex, but the chores) Nekodojo (12:28:18 AM): Yeah, the chores is something small that we can tackle. Maybe planning at least 1 thing during the day will help… Kethry2 (12:29:08 AM): How about a “no computer day?” Kethry2 (12:29:21 AM): Pick one day a week you go out, see movies, take walks, but you can’t log on even you Nekodojo (12:29:31 AM): I probably wouldn’t complain about the sex as much or at all if she decided that being non-monogamous was OK, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. :) Kethry2 (12:29:50 AM): No, that aint gonna happen, sorry Nekodojo (12:29:53 AM): That is a good idea. Maybe not the whole day, but an evening Kethry2 (12:30:47 AM): Well, yeah since she doens’t get up till later, but yeah but YOU can’t log on either Nekodojo (12:30:49 AM): (Well, one option is to cheat on her and just not tell her, but I’m totally not that type of person) Kethry2 (12:31:22 AM): No, that isn;t an option, and it wouldn’t make you happy. You Not having sex isn’t the problem its You (plural) not hjaving sex Nekodojo (12:31:40 AM): I know Kethry2 (12:33:16 AM): Well all I can say is that just talking about it hasn’t helped. You need to cause some action (I think alist is a good way to go, but I could be wrong) Nekodojo (12:33:17 AM): I have also thought, wouldn’t it be great if SHE found someone else she was interested in and suddenly found a reason to be sexual again (and sexy too). But I think that’s even less likely. Kethry2 (12:33:45 AM): yeah I dont think that is gonan happen Nekodojo (12:35:20 AM): Maybe I’ll take a karate class or something… I need something that gets me active, and I’ve kind of given up on finding an exercise program we can both do together. Kethry2 (12:36:07 AM): I think that is a great idea. I have been going to the gym every lunch hour, it really gives you a lot of energy Nekodojo (12:37:07 AM): Speaking of chores, I should really go medicate the cat now. Then I will probably go to bed. I usually try to observe somewhat normal wakeup times on weekends too, just so I’m not totally out of it when Monday comes :) Nekodojo (12:37:31 AM): I appreciate you taking the time to talk and provide moral support. It helps. Kethry2 (12:37:40 AM): OKay good night :) Nekodojo (12:37:51 AM): I’ll let you know what happens…